003: Finding Leadership Resources Inside Yourself with Kathleen Lihanda
Listen to the episode
Kathleen’s Business: http://mycareeridentity.com/
Kathleen’s leadership program at Tangaza University College: http://theleadersguild.tangaza.ac.ke/
The coaching school Kathleen received her education from: http://www.cdi-africa.com/
An introduction to the GROW Model: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GROW_model
International Coaching Week 2019 will take place April 29th - May 5th 2019: https://coachfederation.org/blog/international-coach-federation-announces-dates-for-international-coaching-week-2019
Kathleen Lihanda: I believe coaching is truly a tool that, of course, creates an opportunity where you learn more about yourself, but you also learn more about the other people. So it truly brings out the best in you in terms of interaction with other people.
003: Finding leadership resources inside yourself
Fabian Luetzig: Welcome to the Global Campfire of Coaching, an ongoing discussion between Coaches, Coachees and anybody else interested in the Art and the Science of Coaching, spreading information and exchanging opinions so that we learn and grow together as a community. I’m your host Fabian Luetzig.
Sitting down at the Campfire with us today is Kathleen Lihanda. Kathleen has worked as a Leadership Coach and operations manager in The Leaders Guild Program at Tangaza University College in Nairobi for four years. As founder and Career Coach of My Career Identity, Kathleen has direct professional experience in youth programming, including pathways to employment, leadership development and entrepreneurship. She enjoys using her strong communication skills to initiate collaborative opportunities. She also serves as the Organizing Secretary in the current board of the International Coach Federation’s Kenya Chapter and has acquired an MBA in Global Business Sustainability from the Catholic University in Italy.
Kathleen Lihanda: The first time I heard about coaching was in the year 2012. We were four leaders who went through a leadership and management program. It was a degree program. The four of us, we came together and said “How do we come up with a leadership development program based on what we’ve learned, but also add value to leaders who have possibly gone through the same program we’ve gone through, but also to leaders who possibly run their own organizations and need support in terms of self-development or even professional development?” So that’s the point that one of us pointed out and talked about coaching. This was really the first time I heard about coaching, but I was so interested in it that I went to find out more about it.
Fabian Luetzig: How did you go from hearing about coaching this first time to then wanting to become a full-fledged coach yourself?
Kathleen Lihanda: I think at that point when I was researching, I came across a lady who was first of all a certified coach and was offering training in coaching. So we had a meeting, I scheduled the meeting with her and I sat with her for about 30 minutes. During that meeting it truly inspired me to want to become a coach. Understanding how powerful coaching is in terms of helping other people but also me to understand that I have the power within me to sort out any problem that I’m facing. I found that to be very powerful and inspiring. I thought, based on the snippet of information that she gave me, it made me really want to go through the training so that I use it in an effective way with the leaders that we were working with within the leadership program. But also, I saw it as a self-development opportunity for myself. It really inspired me to become a certified coach.
Fabian Luetzig: And who was this very inspiring lady that we have to thank that you’re part of our coaching community today?
Kathleen Lihanda: This inspiring lady is Ms. Eileen Laskar. It was through her coaching training program, through her organization called CDI Africa that I was able to really gain experience and knowledge about coaching. It’s Ms. Eileen Laskar, and I thank her for that!
Fabian Luetzig: What’s been your path ever since you completed your coach training
Kathleen Lihanda: Like I said in the beginning, we were starting this leadership program, and maybe just to speak about the program and why it started: We’re alumni of a leadership program from DePaul University from Chicago in the US. Many of us in Kenya had gone through the same program, but we also wanted to use the information and the theory we got through the leadership program to impact others positively. As we were doing it, we now opted to find ways on how we could really offer value to these values who had gone through the same leadership program we went through DePaul University. But also, to add value, something. that was going to inspire them to become better leaders. So the coaching program came in handy and within the context, we were able to go through the training but at the same time impact other leaders to learn from us as coaches so that they were able to lead more effectively, become more self-aware and emotionally intelligent. So the idea was to truly offer value to these leaders and the group that we were targeting
Fabian Luetzig: Why was that, or why is that important to you, to impact other leaders, to help them gain self-awareness?
Kathleen Lihanda: Look, we come from a society where leaders are more self-centered. The actions, especially within our country, it calls for more awareness in terms of what true leadership is. From the leadership program we were offering, our intention was to create a sense of self-awareness for these leaders so that these leaders, they are fully able to understand the impact they can make once they are able to fully understand themselves. So the intention was to truly use the coaching to impact these leaders in a way that they feel called upon to offer value to the society in a way that is fulfilling not only for them but also to society. So it was based on what we were seeing in Kenya in terms of leadership and we felt coaching was truly a good opportunity to offer a sense of new insights for these leaders, new learning opportunities so that they are able to impact others more positively. And the other thing we noticed is that as leaders, that looked at the theoretical part of leadership, but there very few that truly targeted the leader as self, targeting the leader from within. There were very few. And for us, we felt, that was the key or unlocking this potential that these leaders had from within, but in a way that inspires public service, opportunity to offer service to the community that is of great value to the community, not just to themselves as leaders, but to the community.
Fabian Luetzig: I think there’s something really interesting in what you just said: You started out by saying that there is/ was a tendency for leaders in Kenya to be fairly self-centered, but at the same time the programs they were offered didn’t focus on the leaders themselves, so even though people might have been self-centered, they didn’t really get the chance to look inside themselves properly. The way you’re framing it, by giving them that chance, focusing on themselves and looking inside themselves, they then get the opportunity and the tools to impact society for the better. And the will, I imagine as well. So that’s a very interesting dynamic you’re laying out there.
Kathleen Lihanda: Yes, I think you got it! It was based on the fact that there weren’t enough support systems for these leaders to truly stop and reflect from within. It was all external and we felt this leadership program needed to offer these leaders a space where they would be able to go and reflect within themselves; that in the process of the reflection they’d gain insights and new learning that would help them become better leaders, unleash the potential within themselves, but also become better leaders. Because I believe coaching is truly a tool that, of course, creates an opportunity where you learn more about yourself, but you also learn more about the other people. So it truly brings out the best in you in terms of interaction with other people. When you say leadership, if you’re not aware of what thoughts or feelings the people you’re leading are going through, then you become disconnected with them. So you end up not having them with you; rather, there’s a disconnect between your leadership and the people you’re leading. I think that is what we experience in Kenya. Coaching offers an opportunity for these leaders to truly connect within themselves but also connect with others, the ones that they are working with, more effectively. It’s truly a relationship tool where you become better in terms of how you interact with other people but also within yourself. So I feel it’s truly a powerful resource for any leader. And that is what we used as a basis to make this program truly stand out.
Fabian Luetzig: What is one of your favorite coaching success stories, maybe coming out of that program?
Kathleen Lihanda: I think one of the best coaching stories that I can remember is when I was just almost finishing my training in coaching. There was a leader who approached me: she was a leader in a congregation (a congregation is a community of religious women, in this case it was religious women, but there are also congregations of religious men). This lady approached me; as a leader she wanted to become more effective in terms of her communication to the people that she was working with. She had realized through the workshop that we were offering in the leadership program that she had attended that she needed help in terms of communicating effectively. I was one of the people who facilitated. From that, she really wanted to learn more, so she came back to me and asked me: “Is it possible for you to coach me, so that I’m able to become more effective in terms of how I communicate with the people I work with?” So, I took up the challenge – you can imagine, I was just about to finish my coaching training – I took up the challenge and I used the knowledge that I had acquired from the training to truly work with her for around six sessions. As soon as the six sessions were done, I could see a huge difference. She said that she was able to truly listen effectively and that helped her become a better communicator. Previously, she thought it was all about saying words to the people that she was leading, then leaving it at that, but she realized that to be an effective communicator, you also needed to listen effectively. Not just the words that are being said, but also the actions. Actions can really communicate a lot. Based on that new insight, she really used that, and she became better on how she would offer tasks to the people she was leading. It also offered her an opportunity where she would rally support for anything that she felt was best for the community she was leading. So, I think for that it was a very huge success and one of the best coaching stories for me, because I was just starting on the journey to becoming a certified coach. I was still able to offer value to this leader, so it’s something that really gave me an inspiration to become a better coach and it also truly motivated me. I knew that I’m really offering value to someone and I can do more and reach more people.
Fabian Luetzig: Congratulations! I think that’s truly inspirational that you took on such a challenge while still being in your coach training. It’s exactly like you say, I think: We can already hit the ground running and provide value to people. And that’s such an eye-opener when you realize: “Wow, this is working! I can do this!” For people who are in coach training or who just finished their coach training, I hear from people sometimes who say “Hm, well I finished the coach training, but I’m not really coaching. I don’t know if I’m ready yet and I don’t know if I’m doing it right…” Kathleen, what would you say to these people?
Kathleen Lihanda: I would say: you definitely need to start from somewhere. I understand that people are different. What I would tell them is: As a coach you truly need to understand your own personality. If you feel that you’re ready to start coaching, the better for you, because the faster you get into that opportunity, into that space where you’re able to practice what you’ve learned, then it becomes a part of you faster, for a lack of a better word. With coaching, the more you do it, the more effective you become. You can still start as soon as you gain awareness of knowledge of the basics of what coaching is and also understand the competencies. Then, you’re truly open to start practicing as a coach, because the more practice, the better you become. Within the coaching training, you’re expected to have a number of hours for you to be at a level where you’re seen to be more effective. There are different levels with in coaching: there’s one which is the ACC level where you should have coached for around 100 hours and above. So, the sooner you start in terms of implementing what you’ve learned, the better for you, because you build up on your hours, but truly, truly you build up on your experience as a coach. You become more comfortable within that space of coaching.
Fabian Luetzig: I really like the way you put it there, ‘coaching becomes a part of you’. That’s so true, coaching becomes a part of you, like you said. It’s something you are, rather than something you do. The earlier you get going on that, the earlier you achieve that state, and that’s just wonderful.
Kathleen, has there ever been a time when you have doubted your abilities as a coach?
Kathleen Lihanda: Yes, there are times that I have doubted. This is truly based on the fact that I believe: as a coach there is always room for improvement. There are opportunities where I felt that I should have helped the client gain new insight faster or be able to come up with their own solution faster. But every time I keep on reminding myself that it’s truly about me as a coach, not about what I want to see, but it’s really about the client who has come to see me. It’s about them, for them to go at the pace that they want to go, for them to gain insights that I may not necessarily expect. So it’s truly about them. So as a coach, I definitely feel like I need to continuously remind myself – and I do that over and over, whenever I have a session with someone – remind myself that this is really about them.
Fabian Luetzig: How do you manage that, to remind yourself? Do you have a little ritual beforehand or how do you keep that top of mind?
Kathleen Lihanda: I think what definitely helps me stay on track and remind myself that this is not about me, it’s about them is this model that I use. It’s called the GROW model. It is through this model that I’m able to focus on the different levels. As I focus on how the client is moving, then for a second, I forget about myself. There are times when I think “no, please don’t do that” within myself; I feel like I want to give advice. But I always remember what coaching is and what it is not. It stays as an anchor within me, remembering that coaching is really not about giving advice. It’s really not about showing that you’re more intelligent than your client. It’s truly about partnering with this other person in a way that you empower them to come up with the solutions to their problems. So it is not me, it is them who comes up with the solution. And from that, it really helps with always keeping myself in check this is not about the coach, it’s about the client. That becomes very effective for me.
Fabian Luetzig: I definitely hear you on sometimes sitting there and wanting to give advice and then having to remind myself: “Nope, this is not about you! You’re not here to perform, you’re to help your client, to empower them” I’m wondering, is there a particular piece of advice that you want to give people over and over? Because if so, you have the opportunity here, since we’re not in a coaching session, to share that piece of advice with the world now.
Kathleen Lihanda: Would you want me to give a piece of advice based on the experience I have in coaching or the advice that I normally find myself wanting to give clients?
Fabian Luetzig: Yeah exactly, what piece of advice do you keep yourself from giving clients – but now would be the moment to let loose and let it out.
Kathleen Lihanda: There’s this particular advice that keeps on popping up every time I’m sitting with a client and they’re trying to come up with some kind of way on how to deal with a problem or a situation that they’re in. I always say it within me: “This is doable! This is doable.” The advice that I wish I would give them is “This is doable! This is doable.” But you see, if I was to tell them that, then it would literally make them feel like “Am I being judged? Does she feel that I’m stupid?” So, to avoid that, I end up just not saying it. At the same time, I focus on the model so that I’m able to empower them in a non-judgmental manner, so they eventually come up with the solution that best fits them. So yes, the advice that I normally feel that I should give is telling them “This is doable!”
Fabian Luetzig: What is one tip that you would give aspiring coaches?
Kathleen Lihanda: The one tip that I’d give aspiring coaches is: Please run and start practicing! As soon as you’ve gone through the training, get information, but have that urgency to implement what you gained through the training. Your ability to develop as a coach, to be confident as a coach comes in when you start coaching practically. Because it offers new insight as a coach for you to improve in areas that you may have otherwise not known about. It also offers you opportunities to reflect and look at resources that might make you become better. Look for a support system that makes you become a better coach. It truly helps you to start immediately in terms of implementing what you’ve learned about coaching. It always starts with you. As a coach, you need to reflect within yourself: learn who you are, what kind of personality you have, so that you become self-aware. Once you become self-aware, then you truly become an instrument people can learn from. Your self-awareness helps you stay in check as a coach, to always remember that the client has the potential to solve their own problems.
The other advice that I’d give new coaches or aspiring coaches is: Coaching is truly a powerful tool that is not just about your potential client, but it truly starts with you. You’re able to experience it in a way that changes the way you think, the way you act, the way you solve your problems. If you’re aspiring to become a coach, then I would say: it’s truly a fulfilling journey that is going to help you become a better leader, mother, father, whatever you are in your society. So it’s truly a good opportunity for you.
The other thing I would mention is: It also offers you an opportunity to learn the power of listening effectively. Maybe you struggle with listening to other more effectively, then coaching truly helps become a better listener. So that’s it, Fabian.
Fabian Luetzig: So you mentioned support networks in your answer there. I know you have found a valuable support network in the Kenyan ICF Chapter, you’re on the board there. Tell us a little bit about what you do there.
Kathleen Lihanda: Yes, I am the Organizing Secretary within the ICF Kenya Chapter Board. ICF means ‘International Coach Federation’. The Kenyan Chapter, it’s truly a community of coaches within Kenya. What ICF offers to coaches is a support system, but also professional development opportunities. Coaches in Kenya can truly aspire to become better within their practice. Within ICF Kenya, we offer activities where coaches can network with other coaches; we also offer opportunities where coaches are able to learn from other individuals who have higher expertise in terms of coaching. Initially, we talked about the ACC level as a coach. For you to be an ACC, it means you have coached for over 100 hours. The other level is the PCC, which also has quite a number of hours and then the MCC. We offer an opportunity for coaches to interact with professionals who are coaching at a higher level, like the MCC, PCC and ACC. So they’re able to be inspired and learn more from the ones who have really done it for a while and are more experienced. ICF Kenya is truly an opportunity to inspire coaches within Kenya so that they become better in whatever they’re doing as they impact others in their society.
Fabian Luetzig: As somebody who has a bit of an overview over the coaching profession in general and in Kenya, in your role as the board member, what would you say coaching as a profession needs more of?
Kathleen Lihanda: As a board member within ICF Kenya, I have realized that coaching is still a very young profession. People within Kenya, and I think I’d be right to say also other parts of the world, still need to understand what coaching is. I feel that it is a profession that still needs more awareness and it needs more research so that the information that is gathered can be able to communicate the value of coaching in a very clear way and based on evidence. We have evidence but it still needs to be out there, put in a way that people can really understand that coaching exists, and this is what it has done. I feel there should be more research, but in a way that is gathered together and it’s quantifiable, so that other people can see the impact of it. With the awareness we’re making in ICF Kenya, it’s truly helping. This is why we have partnered with entities like the Institute of Human Resource Management in Kenya, so that we’re able to push awareness more effectively within Kenya in terms of coaching. Also, we plan to push for more research with the IHRM and any other professional body in Kenya so that we understand within these institutions where the Human Resource people are working: have they seen the value of coaching? Are they really using coaching as a way to develop or motivate their staff? With this information, it will help us as a chapter to know the gaps and know how we can effectively communicate the value of coaching but also support organizations so that they truly experience the value of coaching.
Within the ICF Kenya board – like I said, I’m the Organizing Secretary – one of the responsibilities that I have is to lead the International Coaching Week event which is actually a global celebration of coaching. During this period, we are able to rally the support of all the certified coaches within Kenya so that we are able to create more awareness about coaching, but also offer coaching to organizations who have never experienced coaching before. We do this through the Activate Program during that week. The Activate Program is where we actually go to these organizations that have never experienced coaching and we offer coaching pro bono coaching services to them. We also target organizations that are already having certified coaches within the organization. They would want to accelerate their coaching program; in these cases we offer opportunities where we offer a bit of a workshop to them, could be two hours. We are able to inspire what they are already doing and also support whatever they’re working on within their organization in terms of coaching. It is through this work that we do in ICF Kenya that we are able to create the awareness that is needed. We also plan to gather more information so that we fill in the gap, the lack of information. When I talk about ‘lack of information’, I mean the lack of evidence of what coaching can actually do in Kenya. We’re slowly getting there and I’m excited about that.
Fabian Luetzig: Well, thank you so much for your service! We all profit and benefit so much from the work that you that you just described in raising the awareness about what coaching is and its effectiveness. I think that’s such an important point that, as coaches, we can so easily cooperate and join together, join forces and be generous with each other in wishing us well for success, because it is an industry that is still growing so much and there is so much potential for it. So there really is no need for jealousy or anything like that amongst coaches. The success of one coach helps me in a way. It proves that coaching is effective and that benefits me. I wish all the coaches all the success in the world, because I know that the more of it is out there, the more of it is in it for me, as well.
Kathleen Lihanda: Very true, I agree.
Fabian Luetzig: So when is the next International Coaching Week?
Kathleen Lihanda: The dates are not set yet, but it normally happens around the month of April or May. We normally wait for the ICF Global Chapter to give us more data in terms of the dates. But what I will tell our listeners would be: Every year we always the International Coaching Week happening and it’s normally around April and May. The idea, like I said, is to truly help people know what coaching is and what it can do to their lives. So, I hope I can communicate more clearly in terms of when the dates are [Editor’s note: in the meantime, the dates have been set for April 29th – May 5th 2019], but I would just ask them to go to the ICF’s social media, or ICF Kenya’s social media, so that they can get more information on the exact dates.
Fabian Luetzig: Yeah, coachfederation.org is the international website, and there you can also find whatever chapter is closest to you in the world and all the information on how you can get involved.
Kathleen, who is somebody, besides obviously yourself, who people should follow or check out because they are inspirational or informational or they have something to offer?
Kathleen Lihanda: You know, I had a couple of them. I realized I just need to say one: I would say: Fabian …. And I struggle with your second name, is it Luetzig?
Fabian Luetzig: Yeah, that’s really good, actually!
Kathleen Lihanda: The person that I feel really inspires me now as a coach is Fabian Luetzig. By what he does and the passion he has for coaching. I remember he joined the ICF Kenya Chapter this year and it hasn’t been too long but I’m able to truly feel the impact that he has made within the Chapter. His willingness to volunteer and offer support to coaches is amazing and very inspiring to me. I have learnt a lot from him, he does not know it. It’s truly inspiring, the levels of creativity that he brings into the chapter, the openness and the willingness to serve whenever he’s called upon. He has a podcast, you know, and I’m so happy to be a part of this podcast. And I truly wish him well in everything that he does. He is truly somebody that you need to watch within the coaching space because I see him leaving a huge footprint in terms of what coaching can do in the society, globally, not just Kenya. So, please watch out for him and see what he’s doing, he will inspire you, too, for sure.
Fabian Luetzig: Gosh, I don’t know what to say, Kathleen, thank you so much! If you could see me, you would see that I’m blushing profusely right now.
Kathleen Lihanda: It’s so true, what you’ve done is amazing! I know the other coaches are also very busy, but it’s truly amazing the impact you’ve made within such a short period. You’ve really managed to volunteer and offer help within ICF Kenya. I recognized that very early and I really appreciate it.
Fabian Luetzig: Well let me put it right back and say that I’ve felt so incredibly welcome here in Kenya, and especially in the ICF Chapter through people such as yourself who have welcomed me with open arms and provide such a nurturing environment that motivated me and just inspired me to get involved and to do as much as possible. That is not the case in all places and that is truly something special and it’s something that I am so incredibly grateful for. So there’s always two sides to that. I think you say it only in German, I don’t know if you say it in English: It takes two to Tango. This podcast as well is just a consequence of how happy I have been and how supported I have felt, especially through the ICF Chapter here in Kenya. So let me just give the thanks right to you representing the whole Chapter.
Kathleen Lihanda: Thank you so much, it’s so inspiring. I can see you doing more even, not just within Kenya, I can see you doing more outside Kenya, so I’m really grateful that you made the opportunity and the time to impact us positively. Thank you!
Fabian Luetzig: Alright, before I start tearing up: moving on! What’s the one thing you want listeners to take away from our conversation today?
Kathleen Lihanda: The one thing I want listeners to take away from this conversation we have had today is that coaching is truly a powerful tool. Sometimes I feel there are not enough words to explain what impact coaching can make to an individual. It’s truly about giving respect to the other person and realizing they can come up with their own solutions to the same problems that they are experiencing. I think it’s truly powerful and it truly communicates the inner potential that every human being has. It’s through coaching that this potential, the full potential can be realized. Not so many human beings understand the inner strength they have in terms of facing their problems but also in relation to them doing much more than they are already doing. So, coaching has really helped other human beings realize that they can do better, way better, than what they are doing. So it’s an internal motivation that can never be taken away from them. That’s the one thing I can say.
Fabian Luetzig: What is the resource, like maybe a book or an online video, should check out?
Kathleen Lihanda: The book that every coach, leader or any other person should check out is the GROW model. I feel like I need to mention the tool. It’s truly a powerful tool when you understand the different areas within the GROW model. As a coach, you’re able to use it in a way that inspires other human beings, but also offers structure on how you walk with the client. When the client comes to you, normally, they are literally everywhere. The may not have the clarity of what they want; they may not know where to start and how to go about it. But using that tool, it truly helps you as a coach, to have the structure within your grasp as you walk with this client. So it gives a sense of flow and at the same time a sense of confidence for the client. Not only for the client, but also for yourself as the coach. A sense of confidence that you’re moving towards the goal, you’re moving towards the goal. So for me the one tool that I keep talking about is the GROW model. In terms of the online resource …
Fabian Luetzig: Before we go to the online resource, sorry, where can people learn more about the GROW model?
Kathleen Lihanda: Where can people learn about the GROW model? If they just go online and google ‘GROW model’ … as I’m trying to think about the writer or author of it … I can’t remember, but just go online and write the letters G. R. O. W. model
Fabian Luetzig: I actually just googled it and it’s no wonder that you can’t remember the name of who came up with it because apparently that’s a disputed issue. But apparently it was developed in the UK in the late 1980s and early 1990s, so in terms of coaching it’s fairly ancient. So it must have been well proven if it’s still around today and it has such a strong impact on you.
Kathleen Lihanda: Yes, that’s really interesting information! I didn’t know there was a dispute about it.
Fabian Luetzig: Kathleen, as we’re leading up to the end of our conversation, what is a project that you’re working on right now and you would like to shine a spotlight on right now?
Kathleen Lihanda: The project that I’m working on is the Ignite project where I have been given the task of being the project coordinator. This is an opportunity where coaches who are credentialed will work with non-profit entities within Kenya. And these non-profit entities are from the educational sector, so the ACC, the PCC, the MCC will be given an opportunity to go and offer pro bono coaching services to the executives within these institutions. I’m really excited about that because it’s truly an opportunity to communicate what coaching can do even within the non-profit space. I’m currently working on that project, we’re trying to look into ways how we can make it a success. It’s the first time we’re doing it in Kenya, we urge more organizations that are in the educational sector and are specifically non-profits, or NGOs, within Kenya to reach out to us. Let us know that they’re there and we can figure out how to bring coaching to them. As we mentioned earlier, coaching is a tool that makes you become a better leader, a better citizen, a better employee, employer. I encourage any non-profit organization that is in the education sector to reach out to ICF Kenya, so that we’re able to work together to help them maximize the impact that they seek to make within Kenya, within society, but also beyond Kenya. So that’s the project I’m working on now, currently.
Fabian Luetzig: So if somebody wanted to lend you a hand with that, if they know somebody working for an education or non-profit organization, they could tell them to get in touch with you and you take it from there.
Kathleen Lihanda: Yes, they can get in touch with me. They can go to the ICF Kenya website, our contacts are there. They can also get in touch with me directly through my email, which is email@example.com or they could contact me through my phone number which is +254 721 022743. From there, we could discuss what they’re doing and come up with something that would really help them experience coaching but at the same time multiply their impact in society.
Fabian Luetzig: Well Kathleen, thank you so much for being here today, for sharing with us. I wish you all the best with the new board and for inspiring those leaders to search inside themselves and impact society for the better.
Kathleen Lihanda: Yes, thank you so much Fabian, for this great opportunity. I am really humbled by it.